I find the MTKs very useful, but the manual is misleading about the "soft clip".

The "soft clip" limits the output like a brick wall. The level meters at the output of the MTK will stay well below the maximum. This, however, is not the misleading part.

The software and the appendix-manual lead you to believe the output's "soft clip" is before the output's "level" adjustment.

In fact, the "Soft Clip" is applied after the "Level" adjuster.

The "Soft Clip" actually reduces the overall volume. Adjusting the "Level" adjustment in the output section (of the MTK) won't bring up the level. It will only create distortion.

There is a limiter in the MTK that works quite well and behaves as expected. Use it instead of soft clip.

Initially, it appears you can correct the signal loss by increasing the master fader. This is a bad idea if you are dithering to 16 bits. The master fader needs to stay at 100 because the master fader is still operating at 24 bits. (Dither occurs at the end of the MTK chain.) No processing (volume changes) should be done after dithering.

Simply turn off the soft clip and use the "limiter" section instead. Then the MTK will behave more as expected.

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Hook's VS880/ex info page

Cool...thanks...I've added this to the FAQs as well.

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Hook
"There are 3 kinds of people in this world: those that can count, and those that can't"

Check out the VS880EX FAQs!

Yes, I recommend the "limiter" function in the MTK because it behaves more like a classic limiter. It will still clip if you really drive it hard. But, it will also allow the signal to come through to 0dB fs...the "soft clip" won't.
I'm sort of old school, so the "limiter" is more predictable for me.

I haven't used the MTK in a normal bounce situation. I used an external DAT machine to mix to, then mastered with the MTK coming back into the 880ex on two tracks.

(I also used the MTK on an 1880 in the mastering mode.) I'm not sure of the routing in a normal 6 to 2 bounce on the 880ex. It looks to me that in mix/mastering 6 to 2, tracks 1 thru 6 are playing back with the MTK in a "send/return" configuration (not "insert"). The MTK is doing the summation of tracks 1 thru 6 instead of the mix bus. (The mix sw. is off for tracks 1 thru 6, but the fader still determines the level going to MTK.) The fx return now becomes your mastered tracks, so your fx returns are routed to tracks 7,8. The fx return should do no processing at all. They should have all settings nulled. IE, have the eq off, faders at 100, left return panned all the way left, right return panned all the way right. The returns are just passing straight signal.

Then tracks 7,8 are the only tracks routed to the mix bus which go out the master outs. 7,8 and the master out should likewise be nulled.

This means the MTK is effectively the last step in the processing chain. This is important, especially for dithering.

If you are bouncing 6 to 2 in order to burn a CDR, the dither should be on (at 16 bits if there is an option).

Pre and Pst levels should be the same for 7,8 and should also be the same as the master level (as long as everything is at 100).

(I'm recommending setting everything to 100 to prevent confusion. In actuality, faders for 7,8, and master only affect monitoring levels.
You can still alter the master level without affecting the level of the bounce, but to get best monitoring quality, use 100.)

Now, the MTK is your last step in the processing chain and you can use your master out level to verify the signal levels. Anything you do in the MTK should be represented intuitively in the master levels. AND, the "level" adjustment on the output section of the MTK determines the final level of the signal (provided the "soft clip" is off).

Now use the "limiter" to control the peaks, but you really have to watch the peaks.

If you are still worried about digital-overs, maybe experiment with "soft clip", but remember, there has to be make-up gain later (the fx returns set to ~107 ) which means the "dither" needs to be off.

Personally, I'd rather have a few digital-overs than the harsh compression/distortion of the "soft clip".

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: loudhvx ]

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Hook's VS880/ex info page

I tried it last night and the difference was quite noticeable.

I can't thank loudhvx enough for this.

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"When in doubt, play a diminished chord. There's only three of them so you have a one-in-three chance of hitting one note that's supposed to be there."
Old Jazz Guy

Again, this is great research on your part...much appreciated!

Your comment about dithering and fader positions got me thinking. Since the recording modes on the 880s are all 16-bit, but the internal processing is all 24-bit, what happens when I bounce a single track to another track to print effects? Does the result of the effect being applied automatically dither back down to 16-bit?

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Hook
"There are 3 kinds of people in this world: those that can count, and those that can't"

Check out the VS880EX FAQs!

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any literature or hard evidence to suggest any dithering is being done anywhere other than where it is explicitly mentioned in the MTK (off the top of my head I can't remember if dither is mentioned in other effects).

I think most operations will be truncations unless the manual specifies otherwise.

That's why I avoid bounces if I can (but isn't that already the policy anyway?) and am very greatful to Roland for putting in the MTK dither option.

Fortunately, dithering as the last step before burning to CD may cover up the artifacts from previous bounces. This is because you rarely mix multiple tracks at 100%. Normally they have to be reduced during mixdown. This also reduces the artifacts (hopefully) enough to allow them to be masked by the final dither.

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Hook's VS880/ex info page

My guess is that processing internal effects truncates as well. One thing that still puzzles me is when I use my stand-alone burner. When I do my final mix, I usually have effects turned on for certain tracks, which means I'm processing in 24-bit...so I guess I'm truncating at this point when going out digitally to my stand-alone burner? If I then bring that mix back into the VS and apply the MTK, is the dithering really helping at that point?

Guess I could try some different techniques and see if I notice a difference...

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Hook
"There are 3 kinds of people in this world: those that can count, and those that can't"

Check out the VS880EX FAQs!

When you come back in with the MTK, you are processing again at 24 bits. If the MTK is your last step before burning the final master, definitely dither. Hopefully it may mask artifacts from the previous truncations. Either way you need to mask the current truncation.

I'm assuming you are coming back into MAS with the MTK inserted on the input mixer. Make sure the input mixer is nulled. (level 100, no eq, fully panned). No processing after MTK. In this setup, you definitely should not use "soft clip". Dither should be on. And the MTK output section's "level" has the last word on the signal. That is where you do the final tweak.

I don't see any real problems with your setup.

I guess an A/B test is the fastest way to know to
Dither on or Dither off.

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Hook's VS880/ex info page

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PEGSTONECan you lead me to your garden gate. Just let me peek inside. Let me dance among your secrets, leaving me nowhere to hide.

Cheers,